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P4C In Australia
Interview with Gilbert Burgh
By Saeed Naji
Dr.Gilbert Burgh teaches ethics, political philosophy, philosophy and popular culture, and critical thinking in
the Contemporary Studies Program at the University of Queensland’s Ipswich Campus. Dedicated to making philosophy accessible to all, he is active in the promotion of philosophy in schools in Australia and internationally. In 2002-3 he was president of the Federation of Australasian Philosophy in Schools Associations (FAPSA), and has provided training and consultancy services in philosophy and classroom inquiry.
His research interest is in democratic and educational reform, especially alternatives to electoral politics, democratic education, philosophy in schools, and philosophy as active engagement in public affairs.
It seems that P4c, when imported to a country, is changed in a way, relating to the culture of the country.
REPLY: Yes, there seems to be evidence of this. In the UK the emphasis on "with" rather than "for" is on example. Thus Murris and Haynes ("philosophical enquiry with children", in Curnow, Trevor, Ed, Thinking Through Dialogue: Essays in philosophy in practice, Practical Philosophy Press, 2001) argue that the term philosophy with children is broader than the term Philosophy for Children which refers to a particular tradition which stems from Lipman and his emphasis on community of inquiry. Philosophy with children refers to other traditions also used in the class such as Nelson's Socratic Dialogue, which is popular in Europe and is used by people such as Lou Marinoff (Plato Not Prozac) in the US who place emphasis on philosophical counseling rather than classroom pedagogy.
When I saw the Philip cam's books on philosophical inquiry for children, I thought there could be a different version of P4c in Australia. Because his edited stories in the area were to some extent different.
REPLY: As a general rule of thumb, in Australia Philosophy for Children in its early stages referred to a particular methodology, curriculum, syllabus or program founded and developed by Lipman, and later to a discipline with its own set of materials, in which Lipman's materials played a significant role. Philosophy for children now refers to a sub-discipline of philosophy with its own history and traditions. Recently, Australia has officially used the term philosophy in schools to describe what is happening here. As you are aware Lipman has written a series of extended narratives for students, which explore philosophical themes selected from the history of philosophy, and with his colleagues have developed accompanying instructional manuals for teachers. In Australia, since the early 1990s an ever increasing range of "purpose-written" narratives and resource/activity books (e.g., Phil Cam, Thinking Stories series; Judy Keen, The Time Rider's Code) have become available. They differ from the IAPC material in that they are not considered to be a curricular program and are in the form of short stories. Also available prior to Cam's purpose written stories are teacher support materials to accompany carefully selected children's literature already available (e.g., Tim Sprod's Book into Ideas; de Haan et al Philosophy for Kinder Kids Kit), and classroom materials which include sections on how to choose suitable stimulus material from the vast range of classical and contemporary children's stories and picture books (e.g., Susan Wilk's Critical & Creative Thinking).
Is there such a different version of p4c in Australia? If there is, Please tell us about distinctions of it?
REPLY: As above, but also in Australia the emphasis is on the integration of curriculum, teaching and learning. In other words, we do not attempt to introduce a P4C curriculum using a package such as Lipman's. What we do is develop teachers expertise (through professional development and training) on how to use the methods of P4C for pedagogical reform or/and as a pedagogy to integrate an otherwise disparate curriculum esp. in high schools.
Can you tell us about achievements of P4c/Pwc in Australia? In what extend is it being accomplished?
REPLY: It depends on what you mean by achievements. For example in Queensland, Buranda State School has a whole-school practical philosophy program (see Burgh, G., Field, T. & Freakley, M., Ethics and the Community of Inquiry: Education for Deliberative Democracy, Thomson/Social Science Press, 2006). We also have our own level 1 and 2 training as well as an online course, which I have been informed IAPC have recently bought or are in the process of purchasing the license.
What about the achievements in enhancing children's thinking skills?
REPLY: In Australia, as I understand also the rest of the countries where P4C have been implemented in classrooms, teachers have different reasons for introducing it into the classrooms as well as different ways of introducing it. All teachers are concerned with enhancing children's thinking skills as such there is an inherent emphasis on thinking skills, although my interest is in students developing not just skills but dispositions like being critical and creative thinkers as well as active citizens. Re studies, empirical research in the area is growing, but there have not been, to my knowledge, any extensive studies in Australia or elsewhere (at least not longitudinal studies) on the effects of P4C on thinking skills. Moreover, some of the findings, as well as methodologies used in the studies, have been considered by researchers to be contentious. I can say that from my observations - like many others - that it certainly does improve thinking skills. Buranda State School in Brisbane, Queensland, has received a number of awards, grants etc due to the results from the State tests which measure student outcomes in terms of academic ability. But these tests are not studies, and thus do not demonstrate any necessary correlation.
How much has p4c/pwc been successful in Australia?
REPLY: This is a difficult question to answer as it depends on what you mean by successful. For example success could be measured in terms of: the number of teachers or schools that have introduced it, but not all may produce the expected results; or student outcomes but this does not necessarily tell us anything about the correlation (as above); or changes to educational approaches but this would depend on whether or not reform is first and foremost a measure of success. If you mean that even minimal time in the class improves students’ ability to communicate or think better then there seems to be some consensus among teachers that it is successful. But if you mean measurable quantitatively or meeting some criteria for success then as I said I am not aware of studies to that effect. There are studies available from all over the world and the best source I am aware of which list such studies is on the IAPC website.
Are the Philip cam series being taught in the Australian schools (or other countries')? Or they are taught in optional courses?
REPLY: They are used in some schools as stimulus material along with other purpose written materials and existing materials. The choice of materials is up to the teacher to decide which fits best. There is no standard curriculum for P4C in Australia.
So, isn’t there a unique pedagogy and timetable for teaching the books?
REPLY: We do not teach from the books they are used as stimulus materials to discuss matters related to the key learning areas or subjects. Some teachers have a P4C class once a week or more frequently, others incorporate it into all their lessons, some do both, others use a whole-school approach. How teachers introduce it depends on a lot of factors.
How much are the children interested in doing it and how much do Australian leaders attach importance to it?
REPLY: Another difficult question as my experience of being in classrooms and working with teachers as well as hearsay suggests that students do like being involved in p4c classes generally, but an answer would require studies or at least interviewing a reasonable sample of students. RE Australian leaders, there is very little support, but this may have nothing to do with their interest per se but simply in Australia like elsewhere the introduction of educational reform is not a matter of convincing leaders but of developing strategies to collaborate with teachers, schools, education depts., universities and bureaucracies. In QLD we did get the previous State education minister interested but since him there have been two education ministers due to cabinet re-shuffles and elections. But leaders support is not necessarily an indication of success or support. A good measure is I think the amount of teacher education courses for pre-service teachers that have included p4c. In this sense there is very little - at least formally or as part of a program.
What is Australian education administrators' view about accomplishing the Program in all of Australian schools? Is not there any resistance against it?
REPLY: While it could be said that educational bureaucracies around Australia over the past few decades have to varying degrees supported or "forced" innovations, there is very little indication of such support for philosophy for children. But while support from educational bureaucracies is crucial, curriculum interventions and reforms have to some degree offered opportunities to influence further changes and thus opportunities to integrate philosophy into the the school curriculum. To date, the introduction of philosophy for children into Australian schools has been a gradual process. Its success has relied on the interest of teachers and administrators who wish to introduce it either in their classroom or whole school.
This resistance may be because of p4c proposes a new paradigm (reflective paradigm) for Education. Can we regard p4c/pwc as an alternative paradigm and a rival for current (traditional) education paradigm?
REPLY: I don't think this is important either way. For me it is a matter of giving student the best possible education system and that existing programs have many good aspects. Education is also about diversity and difference and that means different ways in which children learn. Re traditional education, I think this term is over used and misused as if there is such a thing as traditional education and everything else then is an alternative paradigm. What do we mean by traditional education? If you mean the transmission of knowledge as opposed to the transformation then I think we need a mix of both. Having said that my main concern is to develop ways in which to work with individual schools to integrate philosophy wherever and whenever possible into their existing programs and ideas. In this way we take context and locality, community etc into consideration, rather than a one size fits all.
What is your invited and new Idea in the area? In your opinion, in order to improve current education system is there a need for a revolution, or we can overcome its deficiencies with some reforms?
REPLY: Another question that cannot be answered. Revolutions can only occur from grassroots levels and in Australia at least this is unlikely to happen as it is no doubt with the rest of the world. In a democracy - if we mean policy must come from the people - then reform seems to be the only possible way to introduce something if it is to have an impact. Revolution is I think not in line with P4C ideals. To introduce something requires deliberation and participation and coming to agreement about the importance of what it is we are trying to introduce. This does not require revolution but rather educating people by demonstration so that people can see the effects and decide if this is what they want or indeed not. To address this question properly, however, we would need to also consider the limitations of modern democracies in bringing about change in terms of the public interest and the degree of deliberation and participation by citizens in matters of policy.
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