Philosophy with Children in Scotland

Prof. Catherine C. McCal pioneered the practice of philosophizing with young children in the USA in 1984, and from 1985- 86 whilst a Professor in Montclair USA, she introduced Philosophy for Children to the UK, Eire, France, and Spain through a series of International Training Workshops. She was appointed as the External Expert to the Government in Values and Character Education for the Sate of New Jersey, USA 1985-86. McCall created M.Phil. and Ph.D degrees in Philosophical Inquiry at Glasgow University.

Saeed: How much has p4/wC been successful in Scotland? What about the achievements in enhancing children's thinking skills?

For such a small country, Scotland has been very successful in PwC. While current figures for the whole of Scotland are hard to find, we know that in the 1990’s CoPI was implemented in 30+ schools across the country, by M.Phil. Philosophical Inquiry graduates from Glasgow University. By 2007: 65 Clackmannanshire teachers had been trained from 3 Nursery schools, 19 Primary schools and 3 High schools and were implementing ‘Thinking through Philosophy’ with approximately 3,000 children; 134 Fife teachers had been trained in the SAPERE approach and were implementing in 9 Primary schools. Between 2006 and 2008, 240 East Renfrewshire teachers were trained in the ‘Guided Socratic Discussion’ curriculum, and were implementing in 4 Primary and 7 High Schools with approximately 4,000 children. In 2009 graduates of the Postgraduate Certificate in Philosophy with Children began to implement CoPI in 8 schools, and East Renfrewshire is training all the teachers in 24 Primary schools and implementing GSD with a further 12,500 children (a total of 16,500 children will be practising PwC in East Renfrewshire alone by 2010).

2001 research in Clackmannanshire demonstrated an increase of 6 points in IQ tests for children who had been involved in the ‘Thinking through Philosophy’ programme in Primary school, and follow -up research showed that these gains were sustained into Secondary school. 2007 research in East Renfrewshire showed that when children with educational difficulties were immersed in the ‘Guided Socratic Discussion’ curriculum, their scores in thinking skills and dispositions increased dramatically: Solution Implementation and Verification increased by 8.4 points; Positive Problem Orientation increased by 8.7 points; Generation of Alternative Solutions increased by 5.1 points; Rational Problem Solving increased by 4.5 points.

Saeed: How much are the children interested in doing it and how much do Scottish leaders attach importance to it?

Children are very interested in taking part in Philosophy classes, as evidenced by the quotations from children in the numerous national newspaper articles, radio programmes and national TV News items that have appeared since 1990.

Some teachers worry about the already overcrowded curriculum in schools and, if they do not understand PwC, can look upon it as a luxury for which they do not have time. However virtually all the teachers who have had some introduction or training in PwC are very keen to see it implemented. In general the more training teachers have, the more enthusiastic they are about implementing PwC. E.g. teachers and Head Teachers who take the 2-year Strathclyde University Postgraduate Certificate in Philosophy with Children are now sending their colleagues to take the training and are enthusiastic ambassadors about implementing PwC in their schools.

Saeed: What is Scottish education administrators' view about accomplishing the Program in all of Scotland schools? Is not there any resistance against it?

Despite excellent empirical research results, positive reports from children and parents, and positive public statements from Scottish leaders (for example on the BBC Newsnight feature in Feb 2005) politicians have not yet found funding for training.

Saeed: Is there a distinguish approach of P4/wC in Scotland such as Glasgow school?

As described in earlier question answers, several different methods of PwC are practised in Scotland. McCall’s CoPI method and ‘Guided Socratic Discussion’ curriculum, and Cleghorn’s ‘Thinking through Philosophy’ curriculum are practised most widely in Scotland, though all of these approaches are practiced in Europe and internationally too.

There is not enough space here to do justice to the distinguishing features of the different methods of PwC practiced in Scotland. However my book [“McCall, C.C. (2009) “Transforming Thinking: Philosophical Inquiry in the Primary and Secondary Classroom” Routledge, David Fulton] includes descriptions of different PwC methods, the different theoretical philosophies that underlie these methods, and how these different philosophies are actually instantiated in the different PwC practises.

Saeed: Apparently you use some picture books in the classroom Community of Inquiry. Can we regard it as a new invention in P4C program?

Both the Community of Philosophical Inquiry [CoPI] method and the SAPERE approach use a wide variety of materials to begin sessions. E.g. CoPI uses classical philosophy texts (Plato, Aristotle, Descartes etc), picture books, poems, children’s literature, art, sculpture, specially written philosophical novels and more - as stimulus to initial questions. In the sense that we have been using a wide variety of stimulus material for 25 years - it could not be described as a new invention.

Saeed: You have created some university degrees and courses from 1991 to 2000 at Glasgow University, e.g. the degree of M.Phil. in Philosophical Inquiry. Please tell us about the aims of the courses and about their achievements.

The M.Phil. degree in Philosophical Inquiry ran at Glasgow university from 1991 –1999, and the PhD. In Philosophical Inquiry ran from 1991 – 2004.

1) The aim of the M.Phil. postgraduate degree in Philosophical inquiry was to provide both the academic background required to facilitate CoPI and the training in the methodology of facilitating CoPI. M.Phil. students learned logic and philosophy prior to training in CoPI methodology. The students came from different backgrounds with varying university degrees: philosophy graduates, teachers, social workers, local government officers, NGO workers, librarians, an RAF pilot, a doctor, a gardener, university lecturers, etc., and from different countries -Scotland, England, Australia, Portugal, Bulgaria. Students were educated and trained so that they were equipped to work with any group of people in any setting in any country and of any age. Many postgraduates worked in applied CoPI projects with adults and children in the community, in schools, in businesses etc.

2) The Ph.D. degree in Philosophical Inquiry was designed to allow in- depth philosophical and theoretical research and study of Philosophical Inquiry and issues relating to Philosophical Inquiry such as: an analysis of the concept of Childhood, a study of the 18th Century Scottish Enlightenment Philosophy clubs, a study of the nature of Dialogue, a study of the nature of Experience etc. The final Ph.D. Student was awarded her PhD in 2004.

3) In 2003 a new Certificate of Professional Development in Community of Enquiry Methodology was established by Dr. Catherine McCall at Strathclyde University. The speciality of 90 hours International training in CoPI was moved into a separate Certificate course in 2007. Derived from the Glasgow University M.Phil. degree, the International Certificate of Professional Development in CoPI is a blended E-learning course designed for International students, and is taught through intensive residential blocks in any country – recent courses have been held in The Netherlands, Latvia and Belgium. Students taking the International CoPI Certificate course study 5 Units in: CoPI Practice (15 hours); Language, Reason and Argumentation (20 hours); Philosophical Topics (20 hours); CoPI – underlying Philosophy (20 hours); Implementing CoPI (15 hours).

4) In 2007 a new postgraduate Certificate in Philosophy with Children was established by Dr. Claire Cassidy at Strathclyde University. Taught in twi-light seminars and lectures over two years, the Postgraduate Certificate in Philosophy with Children has four 20 hour modules: Philosophy and Logic; Participation in Practical Philosophy; Theory of PwC; Facilitating PwC. The Certificate in Philosophy with Children trains students in how to implement CoPI and the first cohort of graduates are now implementing CoPI in schools in different areas of Scotland.

5) A new Annual International Residential Training course in CoPI is beginning at Kilquhanity Children’s Village, Scotland from April 25th – May 2nd 2010. This course combines the CoPI Certificate with learning about the unique pedagogy and philosophy of Kilquhanity. (Contact: c.mccall@strath.ac.uk)

Saeed: You organized the 2nd EPIC International Conference on Philosophical Inquiry and Lifelong Learning (TALKING THINKING in June 2006, Glasgow). Could you tell us about important achievements of the Conference on P4/wc?

2nd EPIC International Conference on Philosophical Inquiry and Lifelong Learning (TALKING THINKING in June 2006, Glasgow) brought together practitioners of PwC and of philosophical dialogue, and also theorists on the nature of philosophical dialogue from around the world. As well as providing learning for delegates, the conference developed a community amongst the delegates by the inclusion of a variety cultural activities and opportunities for networking. The balance of theoretical papers, reports on empirical research, practical demonstrations of CoPI and workshops for participants to experience different approaches to doing philosophical dialogue, meant that there were opportunities for even the most experienced delegates to learn something new. The most important achievement was the spirit of international community, which the conference engendered, as well as the range of different methods and approaches that were demonstrated and reported upon.

Saeed: Could you tell us about the approach of P4/wC which is interested in Scotland please? Is there a different version of P4/ws in your country? If yes, what are its distinctive characters?

There are 4 main different methodologies for doing philosophy with children and communities that are currently practised in Scotland.

1 The first introduction in 1989 was the Community of Philosophical Inquiry [CoPI] methodology created by Dr. Catherine McCall (initially developed in 1975-76).This methodology is based in a neo-Sceptic realist philosophy and has its intellectual roots in the Scottish Enlightenment philosophy clubs of the 18th century. [See McCall, C. C. (2009) 'Transforming Thinking: Philosophical Inquiry in the Primary and Secondary Classroom' , Routledge David Fulton http://www.routledge.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp?curTab=DESCRIPTION&id=&parent_id=&sku=&isbn=9780415476683&pc= ] The practise of CoPI requires a ‘Chair’ with knowledge of philosophy and logic who elicits philosophical reasoning from a group of people, (whether 5 year old children or 95 year old senior citizens), using the CoPI reasoning structure. The CoPI Chair analyses the content of individual participants contributions in a discussion for the underlying philosophical assumptions and then uses this knowledge to juxtapose different contributions from participants in such a way as to create a ‘philosophical tension’ between inconsistent philosophical theories. This requires the CoPI Chair to be able to recognise instantly the underlying philosophy and to be able to predict the most fruitful combinations that are likely to be forthcoming from participants. The CoPI Chair uses the reasoning structure to create the conditions for the inconsistencies to be articulated and then uses these ‘conceptual conflict’ to drive the dialogue deeper. The dialogue is stimulated by first reading - usually a philosophical text or story – from which the participants ask questions. The Chair chooses questions for discussion (which participants have raised) according to different levels of criteria the first of which is – “which questions hold the most philosophical potential?”

2 The second methodology introduced into Scotland was Leonard Nelson’s Socratic method, introduced in 1991 by Dr. Karel van der Leeuw and Dr. Catherine McCall. Based upon Nelson’s neo-Kantian philosophy this methodology requires a philosopher to run discussions that use Nelson’s regressive method to move towards the underlying philosophical truths, which Nelson held, could be found at the limits of actual experience. Nelson’s Socratic Method requires great care in the selection of one question that will be addressed. Guided by the discussion leader (philosopher) the group enquire into the possible questions according to (usually) existential criteria. One question is selected and examined for approx. 40 hours through the examination of one real example from the experience of the one of the participants. Hypothetical and abstract concepts are forbidden in the discussion, only actual experience is allowed for examination.

3 The SAPERE approach to p4c was introduced by Morag Mackinnes in Fife in1998. The SAPERE approach derives from Matthew Lipman’s p4c method and concentrates on the democratic development of a community within a classroom. (Lipman is theoretically based in Dewey and Vygotski). The teacher can choose any kind of stimulus materials to begin the discussion – stories, pictures, music etc. Children raise questions about the stimulus material and children vote upon which question they will talk about. The teacher’s role is to keep the discussion running and inclusive.

4 In 2005 a new methodology called Guided Socratic Discussion [GSD] was developed by Catherine McCall and is being used with over 3,000 children East Renfrewshire, Scotland. The GSD methodology is delivered through books rather than by a facilitator. GSD requires no knowledge of philosophy or logic on the part of the teacher. The teacher and children follow a course book through which they are guided towards philosophical reasoning. GSD involves set exercises in talking, listening, thinking and reasoning as well as explicit instructions on how to engage in a discussion. Initially the questions that children discuss are set by the GSD books – so that they will be discussing philosophical questions. Later in the course children begin to add their own questions to those set in the GSD books.

All the methodologies develop communities in the groups with which they are used. All the methodologies involve group discussion. The main differences are that McCall’s CoPI and Nelson’s Socratic Method both require philosophical expertise and academic knowledge of philosophy and logic on the part of the discussion leader, whereas SAPERE p4c and GSD do not require the teacher to have any academic knowledge of Philosophy or logic.

One other feature differentiates McCall’s CoPI from all the others – Nelson’s Socratic method requires only real actual experience of the participants to be discussed, and SAPERE p4c and GSD all use the experiences and opinions of the participants. On the other hand CoPI explicitly states that participants may contribute thoughts which are not their own opinions - that it is irrelevant to CoPI whether contributions are the actual opinions of participants and that participants will never know whether they are or not.

Saeed: Your new book Laura and Paul was reprinted recently. It is a story about two children who find philosophical wonderment in everyday life. Please tell me about the structure of the book and the contents of your other books related to P4c.are they taught in the children classrooms? Or they can be used in other place e.g. at home by the children's parent?

The first (USA) edition of ‘Laura and Paul ‘ was in 1989 (and is seen in use in the 1990 BBC documentary Socrates for Six year olds). The second (UK) edition was in 1990, and this is the 3rd (UK) edition. The book is short novel that has philosophical puzzles and paradoxes embedded within the story. It was written as a stimulus for Philosophical Inquiry and p4c, and has been used by thousands of children in the USA, Scotland, England, Poland, Australia, Germany, etc. since 1989. Although written for CoPI, ‘Laura and Paul’ has also been read by parents and children at home. www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=18340

‘Changes’ 1992 was commissioned and written initially for stimulating CoPI in a community project in Glasgow for functionally illiterate adults, and has been used with adults and teenagers in Scotland, Australia, and also in South America. ‘Changes’ tells a story of Laura and Paul’s parents, and overlaps the fictional time frame of ‘Laura and Paul’.

‘Exhibitions’ 1995 was written for the PECA project (with Spain, Italy and Belgium), as a stimulus for CoPI with children and tells Paul’s story with an emphasis on art and aesthetics and the social and moral implications of aesthetic judgements. It was translated into Spanish, Italian and French.

‘Ken and Gelt’ 1999 was written to stimulate CoPI with adults for the National Dialogue Project in Scotland, and continues the story of ‘Changes’ with an emphasis on the philosophical puzzles inherent in the knowledge economy.

‘John’s Story’ 2004 is written to stimulate CoPI with young teenagers and emphasis the philosophical concepts and moral dilemmas concerned with life for a modern teenager. The character, John, appears first in ‘Laura and Paul’, and ‘John’s Story’ occurs in the same fictional time frame as ‘Changes’ and ‘Laura and Paul’. http://www.lulu.com/content/4765947

Complete Guided Socratic Discussion Curriculum

Ages	Books
(6-10)	‘Wondering’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Wondering’
(7-11)	‘Wondering Adventures’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Wondering Adventures’
(8–12)	‘Talking Thinking’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Talking Thinking’ (also translated into Spanish)
(9-13)	‘Thinking Adventures’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Thinking Adventures’
(10-14)	‘Thinking Changes’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Thinking Changes’
(11-15)	‘Thinking Challenges’ + ‘Teachers Guide to Thinking Challenges’
(12-16)	‘Thinking Transformations’+ ‘Teachers Guide to Thinking Transformations’
(15-18)	‘Thinking Philosophy’ * + ‘Teachers Guide to Thinking Philosophy’

Saeed: We are recently hearing some interesting news from Scottish Centres and universities (e.g. Center for Lifelong Learning and Glasgow University ) on P4/wc. Glasgow seems to be one of active cities in promoting p4/wc in the world. At first I would like to hear from you abut activities and in the centres.

There have been 2 centres in Scotland concerned with doing philosophy with children and communities. The first centre EPIC (the European Philosophical Inquiry Centre) was founded by Dr. Catherine McCall in Glasgow in 1990 to implement Community of Philosophical Inquiry [CoPI] projects with: children, business leaders, doctors and nurses, communities, artists, et. al. The second centre was the Postgraduate Centre for Philosophical Inquiry at Glasgow University established in 1993. Dr. McCall had begun Postgraduate degree courses in CoPI in the Philosophy Department at Glasgow University in 1991, however by 1993 it became obvious that a separate postgraduate centre was needed to manage the numbers of postgraduate students wishing to take the M.Phil. and PhD. degrees. The Centre for Philosophical Inquiry was set up purely for academic study, while EPIC continued in its role of finding funds and managing the applications of CoPI outside of the postgraduate degrees. EPIC continues today with a range of applied activities, but the Glasgow University academic centre is closed. (However - see below for current university courses at Strathclyde University). EPIC Activities from 1990 – 2006 Many EPIC projects have been successful in Scotland since 1990. For most of these applied projects, funds had to be raised to support the projects. From 1990 – 2000 the funds came mostly from charities and also from the EU. Since 2005 the funds have come from the Scottish government. The following is not a complete list of the EPIC activities, for example there are many CoPI applications in classrooms that are not recorded.

The first implementation of CoPI with young children in the UK: 6-year-old children do CoPI in Renfrewshire Primary School.

1. First UK Adult extra- mural CoPI class 2. First UK implementation of CoPI in classroom with special needs teenagers in Glasgow 3. First UK group of CoPI with business Directors from across the country 4. First UK CoPI and Values Education project at Jordanhill college – trains people from many countries in CoPI and Values Education 5. First UK Training in p4c for Education lecturers and Head Teachers at Jordanhill Teacher Training College 6. First UK Implementation of CoPI in classroom in London UK 7. First UK Nelson Socratic Method groups - 2 groups adults in Glasgow

1. First UK groups of mothers and children’s CoPI community groups from deprived areas in Glasgow 2. First UK groups of CoPI with non- literate adults in Glasgow to develop literacy 3. Second group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 4. Second group of CoPI with Business directors 5. Second Training in p4c for education lecturers and head teachers at Jordanhill college 6. CoPI with 4 schools in Glasgow, 7. CoPI with 2 schools in Edinburgh, 8. CoPI with 1 school in Aberdeen 9. First UK CoPI in prison project

1. Second groups of mothers and children’s CoPI community groups from deprived areas in Glasgow 2. Third Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 3. COPI in classroom with in 2 schools in the Borders, Scotland 4. COPI in classroom with in 5 schools Glasgow 5. COPI and Socratic Method with Business directors 6. COPI and Values Education training continues at Strathclyde university

1. Large CoPI community project to prevent sectarian and gang violence in Castlemilk Glasgow with 7 groups: a. 1 group 7 year olds children b. 4 groups of 11-year-old children c. 2 groups of adults 2. CoPI in classroom with 3 primary schools Glasgow 3. Fourth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. CoPI community project to prevent sectarian and gang violence in Castlemilk Glasgow with 7 groups continues 2. PECA project CoPI and Art and Aesthetics with 2 classes: 6 year olds and 10 year olds. Partnerships between: Langbank Primary School Renfrewshire; Escola Pau Vila, Esparreguera. Catalunya. Spain; Scuola Giovanni Pascoli, Rovigo. Italy; Ecole Fondamentale, Mons. Belgium * 3. CoPI with primary school classes Glasgow 4. CoPI with Secondary school classes Glasgow 5. CoPI introduced in children’s advocacy project 6. CoPI with language students Glasgow 7. CoPI with prison officers Corton vale prison 8. CoPI with primary 2 schools Edinburgh 9. Fifth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. First EPIC International conference on CoPI and Life Long Learning 2. PECA project CoPI and art and aesthetics with 2 classes continues Langbank Primary School Renfrewshire + Escola Pau Vila, Esparreguera. Catalunya. Spain + Scuola Giovanni Pascoli, Rovigo. Italy + Ecole Fondamentale, Mons. Belgium 3. Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 4. Sixth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 5. CoPI with business leaders in Glasgow Chamber of Commerce

1. 4 Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 2. Seventh Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 3. ‘Glasgow Conversations’ CoPI with business leaders 4. CoPI with Strathclyde University adult education classes 5. CoPI with Glasgow University adult education classes

1. Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 2. Eighth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 3. COPI with adult education classes 4. First CoPI with Health Care Trust - Ayr

1. National Dialogue project on the implications of the knowledge economy for Scotland - CoPI with 10 different mixed community groups from different socio-economic backgrounds through out Scotland (funded by Scottish Enterprise) 2. CoPI with refugee children 3. 3 Primary school CoPI classes Greenock 4. Ninth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 2. Second set of CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 3. Tenth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 4. On site In service classes for teachers in reasoning skills 5. On site in service classes for teachers in talking and listening skills

1. On site In service classes for teachers in reasoning skills 2. On site in service classes for teachers in talking and listening skills 3. On site in service classes for teachers in citizenship 4. Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 5. Beginning CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 6. Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 7. Eleventh Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. On site in service classes for teachers in reasoning skills 2. On site in service classes for teachers in talking and listening skills 3. On site in service classes for teachers in citizenship 4. Primary school CoPI classes Glasgow 5. Beginning CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 6. Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 7. Twelfth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. Professional development Training for P4c teacher trainers (for NRAIS) 2. 2 On site in service classes for teachers in reasoning skills 3. On site in service classes for teachers in talking and listening skills 4. On site in service classes for teachers in citizenship 5. Beginning and Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 6. Thirteenth Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers

1. Professional development Training for P4c teacher trainers (for NRAIS) 2. Beginning and Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 3. Group of CoPI in classroom with special needs education with teenagers 4. Philosophical dialogue introduction to 7 High Schools in East Renfrewshire 5. Scottish Parliament – introduction to Philosophical inquiry

1. Presentation to the Scottish Parliament - ‘Transforming Scotland through Philosophical Inquiry’ 2. COPI with 11-year-old children Eastwood high School 3. Guided Socratic Discussion with Eastwood High School, Barrhead High School 4. Writing Guided Socratic Discussion curriculum – funded by the Scottish executive (government) 8. Beginning CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 9. Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde

1. Writing Guided Socratic Discussion Curriculum [GSD] – funded by the Scottish Executive Government

3. *3) implementation of GSD with 3,000 children in 7 High Schools in East Renfrewshire 4. Introduction to GSD for Learning Teaching Scotland 5. Second EPIC International conference on CoPI and Life Long Learning 6. Beginning CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde 7. Advanced CoPI adult classes University of Strathclyde

Philosophy with Children in Scotland

An Interview with

Catherine C. McCal

2009